Re coarse language: Social norms have definitely changed regarding using of language. Looking back it seems like old norms were paternalistic or even repressive. I don't buy that. Even though rules of appropriate language are arbitrary, many readers will feel disrespected if they are not followed. Certainly there are gray areas -- like when quoting someone.
@EZ are there really no word that we all know that you would never put into your substack? What would Jason Kilbourn say? The top two taboo words today are: 1) the word which refers to black people which white people are not allowed to use, but black people use routinely,
,and ...
2) "cunt".
If you were the editor at a newspaper, would you allow those words to go into print?
Not in UK newspapers or in broadcast media. You are correct in that it is usually applied by British people (not 'Brits') to very nasty men (Agent Orange comes to mind).
I would not want your examples because they are disparaging toward individuals.
BUT I would allow most other words because they either are disfavored by religious folks for their (now tenuous) connection to the Bible. (Although dammit has become commonplace and is likely allowed most everywhere.) Or are Anglo-Saxon words that were/are seen as low-class after the Norman Conquest. But that was a long time ago and it is OK for them to get out of the penalty box.
I should have been more clear in my question. Would you disallow such words to be printed with all letter in all circumstances even when quoting someone?
I think most editors disallow printing the words, and a minority of the would even not allow printing an expurgated forms of them. Of course, it would depend on your market.
As long as we're going for no more Bowdlerization in newspapers, can we end the use of the incorrect quote from FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, who when asked was reported to have said "Being vice-president isn't worth a warm bucket of spit".
I love seeing this funny visual tweets from last year and fun to seeing them again this morning. It's always much harder to vote for them. I also keep a note on my calendar (paper, old school) of the first daze of the Covid stay at home. I also kept journals, and have continued to keep them with odds and ends of things I come across-some from the PS, Also one with detailed weekly weather and nature notes. I haven't read the hard core journal and files yet. Actually just mentioning that time makes my gut churn with anxiety. It was horrible. And on top of that, 45 was running the show. I get a similar one thinking of him doing it again.
I got a chuckle out of the visual "Hocus Focus" that took me back to my "Highlights Magazine" youth and lots of workbooks with those as a kiddo. I don't often seen this but will look. You are likely a Wordle person-I did the NYT Spelling Bee during Covid and eventually did a time limit as got obsessed with it.
I am a senior with a potty mouth and often have to hold back in groups with a Oh Fuh
I know the Commonwealth folks use the C word a lot but here in the colonies it is an epithet similar to ethnic slurs so I don't consider it a swear word like 'shit.' I wouldn't want to see it in print anymore than I would slurs referring to African-Americans, Jewish Americans, Hispanics etc.
We get the print version daily, and a great thing with that (the best thing?) is the puzzles (KenKen (easy and hard), Sudoku, Crossword). The Crossword is the NYT Crossword, albeit like two weeks later, but who cares?
How much more interesting it would have been if the original expletives in the transcripts of the Nixon tapes had remained. "Expletive deleted" was ridiculous.
I grew up in a Sun-Times/Daily News family so I never saw it. My father called the Tribune a Republican front organization and back then, he wasn't wrong. :)
I honestly do not see the point in complaining that a mildly left of center opinion writer like Eric Zorn does not include more "conservative" pieces. Why would or should he? It is his publication.
Do people complain that Bannon does not include sane political opinions in his rants? That Fox 'News' does not include truthful news? (Not that Mr Zorn is the mirror images of those awful sources.)
Eric, I think you are showing your class background. Middle and upper middle class folks seem excited about using the word fuck or shit.
During my tour in Vietnam that is almost the only words I heard.
Hey Mr. Zackrison, this fucker fucked with me, so I fucked with him and now he is really fucked up.
Okay says I, tell me what happened again without using the word fuck in any form.
These are words of frustration, anger and ignorance. In my view we only need to use them if an accurate quote is necessary, otherwise use a wider vocabulary.
If you live in a world where these terms are used for emphasis, I guess you can get off on them. But when these words are the primary verbs, adjectives and nouns, it is just sad and unnecessary.
I also challenge your view that these words are becoming more acceptable. In some writers’ minds maybe, but not in many other situations.
Do you want elementary school teachers to greet their kids, “hi you fuckers now take a seat.”
Or when applying for a job, do you ask “ I hear you motherfuckers have a job opening?”
Or a patient in a hospital setting “Sorry but your tests tell me you are fucked royally!”
Let’s try for better language in everyday life, you seem to be very diligent in not offending ethnic groups by using offensive terms. Let’s try for the general public as well.
Mailer's "Naked and the dead'. used 'fug' and 'fugging'' in the language of the soldiers. Later, he was introduced to Tallulah Bankhead at a party. She said "Oh, you're the man who can't spell fuck!"
The problems with coarse language are intellectual laziness and the usage adds to the general downgrading of civility in society. What Eric spotlights is quoting what a public official actually said versus using it in simply reporting a story. We have enough trouble getting what we need to know from government hookahs as it is. But I see no need to make us look less smart as a society than we already are.
While I understand objecting to the CTU recruiting (?) students to vote for something specific (property tax), I laud them for getting students involved. In my community we (a bunch of liberal older women) are trying to sign up more voters, especially younger voters, and most especially younger women, and it’s a real struggle. A couple of responses at a recent event: “I won’t register to vote because I don’t want to get called for jury duty.” and “I won’t vote for Biden because he defeated Roe v Wade.” The lack of civic engagement is deplorable and and we must find better ways to encourage involvement. I desperately fear another Trump term!! (I am not an IL resident but live in a brilliantly red MAGA state.)
Wow! What CTU is doing to "bribe" students by getting out of school to go vote for their favored referendum is outrageous! CTU leaders and Mayor Johnson don't seem to understand basic economics so it is no surprise that they don't emphasize educating the students about the economics of the referendum, both positive (slightly lower property taxes for many and possibly less homelessness) and negative (driving up housing costs further by adding to expences of rental buildings and possibly shrinking total revenues as businesses disinvest from Chicago ). And this is all more evidence that Mayor Johnson should excuse himself from the contract negotiations with CTU!
I concur wholly with Peter Zackrison. Additionally, the poll would have been more accurate if "It offends me" had not been the only way to register objection to, ahem, off-color language. Offense suggests objection for a moral reason, as if "I find hearing / seeing those words unnecessarily unpleasant" is insufficient motivation. By the same rationale, stepping in dog droppings is not morally offensive, but it is justifiably repugnant and something I don't want tracked into my house!
I myself swear aloud so rarely that when it does happen, people around me jump to attention, figuring I must be REALLY upset. In my opinion, that is how profanity is meant to function. Other peoples' salty language is not my concern, although if their vocabulary is too repetitive, my esteem for them plummets.
However, folks who find less abrasive ways to let off steam score big points here. I almost choked laughing when one thoughtful young friend let fly, "Son of a BRATWURST!"
Not me. But I did like it that my friend used to yell "Sugar!" when he hit the ball into the net while playing tennis. I sometimes do the same. But - as my family is only too well aware - I more typically use the German expletive "Scheisse!" instead of the English word. (A substitution which is easily guessed by anyone caring to.)
So what language is left for emergencies? Do we now need a whole new generation of swear words, or have we just decided there aren’t any, just varying levels of emphasis?
Those of us in Mr. Davis' district, especially those of us who pretty much ignored him until we got redistricted to the 7th, need this information. I didn't live in IL back when he was participating in bizarre moonie rituals and would not have known without EZ's highlight of it.
The late great architecture critic Paul Gapp had a newspaper clip pinned to his cubicle wall. The story quoted a source saying, in part, "I thought they were b_llshi__t_ng me." Yeah, that's better.
Re coarse language: Social norms have definitely changed regarding using of language. Looking back it seems like old norms were paternalistic or even repressive. I don't buy that. Even though rules of appropriate language are arbitrary, many readers will feel disrespected if they are not followed. Certainly there are gray areas -- like when quoting someone.
@EZ are there really no word that we all know that you would never put into your substack? What would Jason Kilbourn say? The top two taboo words today are: 1) the word which refers to black people which white people are not allowed to use, but black people use routinely,
,and ...
2) "cunt".
If you were the editor at a newspaper, would you allow those words to go into print?
The Brits & Irish use cunt all the time & it appears to be rarely about women to them.
Not in UK newspapers or in broadcast media. You are correct in that it is usually applied by British people (not 'Brits') to very nasty men (Agent Orange comes to mind).
Nothing wrong with using Brits! Even they use it!
I am 'they' and I don't like it and never use it.
You Brits call us Yanks & we call you Brits!
Interesting that the ‘N’ word was not even one of George Carlin’s 7 words you can’t say on TV. It was actually said once or twice on NYPD Blue.
Like "See You Next Tuesday" ??
Aka Donald Trump's favorite line.
no
I would not want your examples because they are disparaging toward individuals.
BUT I would allow most other words because they either are disfavored by religious folks for their (now tenuous) connection to the Bible. (Although dammit has become commonplace and is likely allowed most everywhere.) Or are Anglo-Saxon words that were/are seen as low-class after the Norman Conquest. But that was a long time ago and it is OK for them to get out of the penalty box.
I should have been more clear in my question. Would you disallow such words to be printed with all letter in all circumstances even when quoting someone?
I think most editors disallow printing the words, and a minority of the would even not allow printing an expurgated forms of them. Of course, it would depend on your market.
As long as we're going for no more Bowdlerization in newspapers, can we end the use of the incorrect quote from FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, who when asked was reported to have said "Being vice-president isn't worth a warm bucket of spit".
Except the didn't say 'spit', he said "piss!"
I thought he said 'shit.'
I think it's pretty well understood that he said "piss".
I love seeing this funny visual tweets from last year and fun to seeing them again this morning. It's always much harder to vote for them. I also keep a note on my calendar (paper, old school) of the first daze of the Covid stay at home. I also kept journals, and have continued to keep them with odds and ends of things I come across-some from the PS, Also one with detailed weekly weather and nature notes. I haven't read the hard core journal and files yet. Actually just mentioning that time makes my gut churn with anxiety. It was horrible. And on top of that, 45 was running the show. I get a similar one thinking of him doing it again.
I got a chuckle out of the visual "Hocus Focus" that took me back to my "Highlights Magazine" youth and lots of workbooks with those as a kiddo. I don't often seen this but will look. You are likely a Wordle person-I did the NYT Spelling Bee during Covid and eventually did a time limit as got obsessed with it.
I am a senior with a potty mouth and often have to hold back in groups with a Oh Fuh
I know the Commonwealth folks use the C word a lot but here in the colonies it is an epithet similar to ethnic slurs so I don't consider it a swear word like 'shit.' I wouldn't want to see it in print anymore than I would slurs referring to African-Americans, Jewish Americans, Hispanics etc.
Re: Sun-Times.
We get the print version daily, and a great thing with that (the best thing?) is the puzzles (KenKen (easy and hard), Sudoku, Crossword). The Crossword is the NYT Crossword, albeit like two weeks later, but who cares?
How much more interesting it would have been if the original expletives in the transcripts of the Nixon tapes had remained. "Expletive deleted" was ridiculous.
In fact, the Tribune made news back then by printing the expletives
I grew up in a Sun-Times/Daily News family so I never saw it. My father called the Tribune a Republican front organization and back then, he wasn't wrong. :)
I honestly do not see the point in complaining that a mildly left of center opinion writer like Eric Zorn does not include more "conservative" pieces. Why would or should he? It is his publication.
Do people complain that Bannon does not include sane political opinions in his rants? That Fox 'News' does not include truthful news? (Not that Mr Zorn is the mirror images of those awful sources.)
Eric, I think you are showing your class background. Middle and upper middle class folks seem excited about using the word fuck or shit.
During my tour in Vietnam that is almost the only words I heard.
Hey Mr. Zackrison, this fucker fucked with me, so I fucked with him and now he is really fucked up.
Okay says I, tell me what happened again without using the word fuck in any form.
These are words of frustration, anger and ignorance. In my view we only need to use them if an accurate quote is necessary, otherwise use a wider vocabulary.
If you live in a world where these terms are used for emphasis, I guess you can get off on them. But when these words are the primary verbs, adjectives and nouns, it is just sad and unnecessary.
I also challenge your view that these words are becoming more acceptable. In some writers’ minds maybe, but not in many other situations.
Do you want elementary school teachers to greet their kids, “hi you fuckers now take a seat.”
Or when applying for a job, do you ask “ I hear you motherfuckers have a job opening?”
Or a patient in a hospital setting “Sorry but your tests tell me you are fucked royally!”
Let’s try for better language in everyday life, you seem to be very diligent in not offending ethnic groups by using offensive terms. Let’s try for the general public as well.
Mailer's "Naked and the dead'. used 'fug' and 'fugging'' in the language of the soldiers. Later, he was introduced to Tallulah Bankhead at a party. She said "Oh, you're the man who can't spell fuck!"
It was his publishers that made him change the words.
Can you imagine a doctor saying “your shit’s fucked up”?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wwQjy_ZTaRM&pp=ygUmTXkgc2hpdCdzIGZ1Y2tlZCB1cCBsaXZlIGpvb2xzIGhvbGxhbmQ%3D
The problems with coarse language are intellectual laziness and the usage adds to the general downgrading of civility in society. What Eric spotlights is quoting what a public official actually said versus using it in simply reporting a story. We have enough trouble getting what we need to know from government hookahs as it is. But I see no need to make us look less smart as a society than we already are.
I agree 100%.
While I understand objecting to the CTU recruiting (?) students to vote for something specific (property tax), I laud them for getting students involved. In my community we (a bunch of liberal older women) are trying to sign up more voters, especially younger voters, and most especially younger women, and it’s a real struggle. A couple of responses at a recent event: “I won’t register to vote because I don’t want to get called for jury duty.” and “I won’t vote for Biden because he defeated Roe v Wade.” The lack of civic engagement is deplorable and and we must find better ways to encourage involvement. I desperately fear another Trump term!! (I am not an IL resident but live in a brilliantly red MAGA state.)
Wow! What CTU is doing to "bribe" students by getting out of school to go vote for their favored referendum is outrageous! CTU leaders and Mayor Johnson don't seem to understand basic economics so it is no surprise that they don't emphasize educating the students about the economics of the referendum, both positive (slightly lower property taxes for many and possibly less homelessness) and negative (driving up housing costs further by adding to expences of rental buildings and possibly shrinking total revenues as businesses disinvest from Chicago ). And this is all more evidence that Mayor Johnson should excuse himself from the contract negotiations with CTU!
I concur wholly with Peter Zackrison. Additionally, the poll would have been more accurate if "It offends me" had not been the only way to register objection to, ahem, off-color language. Offense suggests objection for a moral reason, as if "I find hearing / seeing those words unnecessarily unpleasant" is insufficient motivation. By the same rationale, stepping in dog droppings is not morally offensive, but it is justifiably repugnant and something I don't want tracked into my house!
I myself swear aloud so rarely that when it does happen, people around me jump to attention, figuring I must be REALLY upset. In my opinion, that is how profanity is meant to function. Other peoples' salty language is not my concern, although if their vocabulary is too repetitive, my esteem for them plummets.
However, folks who find less abrasive ways to let off steam score big points here. I almost choked laughing when one thoughtful young friend let fly, "Son of a BRATWURST!"
Which is why "Shut the Front Door!" is so popular.
Oh don't go there. Next thing you know you will be saying "Cheese and crackers"
Not me. But I did like it that my friend used to yell "Sugar!" when he hit the ball into the net while playing tennis. I sometimes do the same. But - as my family is only too well aware - I more typically use the German expletive "Scheisse!" instead of the English word. (A substitution which is easily guessed by anyone caring to.)
So what language is left for emergencies? Do we now need a whole new generation of swear words, or have we just decided there aren’t any, just varying levels of emphasis?
I am unclear why that much space needed to be devoted to the disgusting Danny Davis and “Rev” Moon.
Those of us in Mr. Davis' district, especially those of us who pretty much ignored him until we got redistricted to the 7th, need this information. I didn't live in IL back when he was participating in bizarre moonie rituals and would not have known without EZ's highlight of it.
I wish you good fortune in being able to continue to ignore him.
The late great architecture critic Paul Gapp had a newspaper clip pinned to his cubicle wall. The story quoted a source saying, in part, "I thought they were b_llshi__t_ng me." Yeah, that's better.
Your puns make me groan with envy.
So you have groan to like them?