Far more important than the city shoveling the sidewalks is the city just enforcing the law for businesses to properly clear their sidewalks. Far too many gas stations plow their show & block the sidewalks, even worse than it was before they plowed. Far too many businesses don't do anything, you'd think they want the sidewalks to be cleared so the customers can get into the stores.
But what the city flat out must do, is get the plow drivers to go back over the corners, where they pile the snow up & you can't cross the streets & they also must clear the bus stops so you can get on & off the buses. If we get a big snow this winter, I will take my big snowblower, the one the NYT's Wirecutter has recommended for the last few years as the best one out there & go all the way to the corner & clear both bus stops I use all the time. Even the businesses there don't clear the bus stops.
A few years ago, I had to complain to the Wilmette Public Works Dept. head, because while Wilmette does plow their sidewalks after heavy snows, they piled it so high outside the Linden L station, there was a 3 foot tall ridge to cross to get on or off a bus there! A week after that complaint, I was there & they had removed the ridge.
As for Gail Arden's comment you highlighted, she reminds me of Mencken's belief that the rubes of his day, 100 years ago, went to evangelists because they were great entertainment, for people who had little to no entertainment, since they didn't have talking pictures, live stage shows or much music. In fact, watching the truly wacky evangelists maybe 20 years ago, I noticed that they always had a lot of music to start their TV shows & they were actually entertainers, that made the current day's rubes feel good, despite their spouting out all that biblical nonsense!
Whether or not the city should take over responsibility for clearing snow on sidewalks depends on cost and reliability of the service. Plowing streets has not been without controversy. I think it would be good to do a pilot in some neighborhoods where property owners would pay an annual fee to cover the cost. Pooling resources to pay for a single contractor to shovel all snow in a neighborhood should cost less than each property owner doing it separately. I would like to see it tried in neighborhoods of varying density to see where it works and where it doesn't.
There is no reason to believe that the city can manage an effective and cost-effective sidewalk clearing service. I don't mind the idea of pilot projects, but I also want to know how they will be assessed and by whom. Simply running the pilots would tend to cement the concept that clearing sidewalks is a city responsibility vs an owner responsibility. Also, if the motivation is clearing snow for those with needs, then why wouldn't the service include the path to the front doors (including stairs and porch)?
We can also expect that the fees required for the service become political and obfuscated. Like garbage fees and water fees. The $9.50/mth/unit garbage fee only covers about a quarter of the city garbage collection costs. As with water, we can expect organizations and groups will claim the need for exemptions or subsidies. I think the service would become an enormous annual cost to avoid an infrequent inconvenience.
In Chicago there are an average of 28 days per year of measurable snow, 11 days a year when there is more than an inch of snow and less than 2 days with 5 inches or more. I always cleared my own sidewalk (all 35 feet of it, plus the 15 feet to the three flat). When the snow was light to moderate this took fifteen minutes. I think the rare heavy snow took less than an hour. Why would I want to pay for a service? Even if the fee was based on the width of the lot, I am guessing I would be paying a lot more for capacity, equipment, and labor that I didn't need. Owning property has responsibilities that fall on the owner.
The obfuscation is the worst part. Ideally, there would be a separate fee and reporting showing the cost of the program and the revenue from fees. But then the City of Chicago has, at times, been less than ideal in its execution of government duties. ;->
It may be a better idea for smaller organizations than the City government. For example, and organization representing employers in the loop.
Very well spoken! Let's remember this is Chicago. All services are politically motivated. Yes, there are costs involved. In some wards, it's hard enough to get city workers to do what they are paid to do, much less add a new duty. Drive around the city some time during summer. Ever wonder why some neighborhoods have beautifully paved streets while others have potholes that could swallow cars and have been there for years? I lived in a neighborhood in my youth on a street with ridges that could remind one of the Rocky Mountains. They were there for most of my youth. My alderman simply had no pull. If you add sidewalk snow removal to the tasks of chores already not being done, many will still be left "out in the cold-and snow".
As a member of a church similar to David Leitschuh's Willow Creek, I would like to call attention to the important difference between Criticism and Contempt. (If you have not had the opportunity, take a read in Chapter 5 of Dallas Willard's book, The Divine Conspiracy for why avoiding contempt should be the marker of the believer). Unlike Hillary Clinton's famous "Basket of Deplorables" quote, Eric's “an appalling reflection on these people who claim to follow the teachings of Christ.” is criticism, not contempt.
David is correct that "we are better than this", but it is only Jesus-followers who MUST avoid contempt and I am sorry to say that Contempt is what I see spoken by our Evangelical Trumpers on the national stage. (Disclaimer: I struggle to avoid falling into the Contempt trap when criticizing them myself!)
Personally, it is sad to see my "Christian siblings" who spent the 90s loudly claiming that personal immorality (i.e. Bill Clinton) disqualifies one from political service now reversing themselves for the sake of political victory for their favorite party (bald face hypocrisy).
Eric's criticism is legitimate, I am sorry to say, regardless of any good works done by our Christian institutions.
The city can't even clear side streets in a timely fashion nor do they even plow alleys, yet they want to tack on sidewalks? If our alderdopes want to make the streets and sidewalks safer, look to combat other safety issues, such as crime.
Will never vote for Trump and haven't watched Fox (or CNN) for a few years, but if you don't think Biden was complicit in his son's millions in Ukraine and China windfalls, you are naive at best.
1440 news is a good "just the facts ma'am" publication. PS is only publication I subscribe to with a definite lean.
I also have a long, drawn-out response to the shoveling proposal. "No".
If you really believe that Bidens’ son’s pathetic situation exposes a serious flaw within Biden himself, so be it. But, bringing this up in light of Trump and his family of influence-peddling millionaires? Why?
I'm sure that Hunter Biden got his "job" with Burisma and made his contacts with China because of his last name. As far as I know there is no evidence that Joe ever interceded in Hunter's efforts to get those jobs, payments, contacts; no evidence that he performed any official act or failed to perform an official act or benefitted financially from any of Hunter's dealings. I would like to see specifics rather than just dancing eyebrows.
Trump may well be more corrupt than Biden. Probably is. But to say that any accusation of Biden being corrupt is a "Fox News shrieking point unsupported by any evidence" is unfair and again naive at best.
"Have you ever spoken to your son about his overseas business dealings"? "No"
Your son makes $11mm dollars dealing with Ukraine and China over 5-year period. You play golf with him and his business partners. You attend lunches with him and his business associates. You are on conference calls with him and his business associates. What father has no idea when a troubled son is making $11 million dollars? Being VP and the head of US diplomatic efforts in Ukraine, he should have been made aware even if by some miracle he wasn't!
Never heard the "dancing eyebrows" before but assume it's not a compliment. :)
I realize this second link is far from neutral, but the quotes are accurate...
"But individuals and business owners who now pay dearly for private snow removal services would make out well."
and this is why you won't have this as a city service. Remember how much the tax preparation industry balked (and prevented) free electronic tax filing? Same thing will happen here.
Not baked? The batter's not even thoroughly mixed. People gripe about taxes then want to do less as citizens! The government is us, people. Each person has an obligation to others as citizens and neighbors and it appears too many people have found it convenient to not do something that they should be doing, shoveling their sidewalks. Those aren't the "city's" sidewalks, they're our sidewalks. People should do their part as neighbors and members of the community and shovel their sections so that the entire sidewalk is cleared.
Can't do it? Then perhaps the neighbors help out those people who can't for whatever reason. The city can step up where necessary, such as stretches along parks, clearing roads, keeping walks clear at corners, etc.
Plow the sidewalks could go back to being shovel the sidewalks with a youth service program. They would get $credit that would be applied to tuition at any city public university. City would supply the shovels.
Ever since I got protested against back in my college days, I have developed this sense that not all protests were legit. A well aimed rotten tomato to the back of my head and a big cheer from my fellow students left a definite impression on me (pun intended). This isn’t right.
I also was taking a course on civil rights. When I watched little black kids walking through a gauntlet of screaming white adults…it hit me again, this isn’t right.
The gut feel came again watching women trying to go to clinics via a gauntlet of protesters with graphic pictures yelling at them.
And again when those wacko religious groups were celebrating the deaths of gay servicemen at their funerals.
I think there needs to be boundaries and my brain says you don’t decide those boundaries but my gut says otherwise.
I find the civil rights marches and gay rights protests easy to support. But what about January 6th, legit protest or not? My gut says no, but there are large groups of people say yes.
“Splatatouille” is as cleverly perfect a name for the Rat Hole as "Chance the Snapper" was for Chicago's 2019 misplaced alligator. A salute to the unknown wits who proposed them!
And while I'm sorry to sound Creationist about this, I'm finding hard to believe that the Rat Hole was not created by human hands. Is there any evidence that it appeared spontaneously? Did someone follow its evolution from a little baby rat?
“You might be asking, however, if it was a squirrel, what about its tail?
‘I'm not totally sure whether the fur on a squirrel's tail would be heavy enough to imprint itself in concrete,’ Magle said. ‘It may have to do with how it landed. It may have to do with something else. But, you know, this is something we often see. Like, for example, it took them a long time to figure out that, like, certain animals in the fossil record had fur because fur doesn't really leave an impression necessarily the way a more dense part of a body, like a bone or muscles, would.’”
So, did the squirrel survive and scamper off? (No scamper tracks noted). Did it croak and then lie there for days slowly decaying? (Nobody noticed?) Did it croak (or get stuck) and then get quickly snagged by a hawk? Inquiring minds want to know! I'm glad to know that the experts don't believe this appeared through random pavement cracking or divine intervention.
“But that still leaves the question of how did it get away with no other prints left in the concrete? Did the animal survive?
‘Squirrels are tough, but the reason that I think probably not is if it had, I would expect we would see other paw prints and stuff still in the concrete when it was sort of dragging itself off,’ Magle said.
There is one scenario, however, in which a happy ending could be conceivable.
‘At a minimum, it probably laid there long enough to leave that impression, the rest of [the concret] dried out,’ he said. ‘Sometimes animals, we see that sometimes with birds that hit windows, sometimes they seem like they're dead but they're stunned and they can lay there for hours before they get up and fly away. So sometimes that does happen.’
Whatever it is, residents are surprised at the sudden attention -- and just how big it's gotten, with tributes, a rush of visitors and more.”
Our neighborhood has historically (the past 35 years we've lived here) had a fairly simple sidewalk clearing "plan": Those of us with snowblowers and/or able-bodied youths in the family get out and lay claim to which side of the street's sidewalk we'll be plowing or shoveling, most of us staying out an hour or so to get our blocks cleared and easily passable. Oftentimes (though less and less often in recent strange snowless winters) we even take care of entry walks and stairs of older neighbors.
I'm not sure if the city could do much to our routine but overcomplicate and screw it up, but it might be a relatively easy and somewhat helpful thing for an alder's office to make and keep a registry of "block club" efforts such as ours and possibly include some token reimbursement for gas and machine maintenance expenses.
Even without such an arrangement, I'm confident our local walks and drives and curbs will continue to be cleared of snow and icy crust a lot more quickly and thoroughly by our local crew of neighborly volunteers than we would ever be able to expect from the city and Streets & San. Just waiting in that expectation could actually be crippling to our current practice, and leave a lot of people stuck with uncleared and unsafe sidewalks.
Protests by their very nature are going to be controversial. And in order to get attention they will inconvenience you. I’ve been aggravated as I sat through my share of long traffic commutes trying to get home from work on a Friday while people slowed traffic by protesting on I-355 overpasses.
That being said, I’m okay with protests up until they turn violent with destruction of property and physical harm to law enforcement or others. At that point I say enough’s enough and steps should be taken to break it up.
The UIC story is what the University of Chicago powers that be are telling us now, but I believe the real problem was U of C wss not perceived as being as cool as one word Ivies, or Stanford hence the name switch.
Back when I went to church (Episcopalian) a guest priest said that the only story about Jesus that appears in all four gospels is cleansing the temple of moneylenders. I suppose supporting Trump is ok for evangelicals because he only borrows fraudulently, but doesn't lend. I feel I must point out once again, that churches and religious organizations do not support charities that provide human services (the homeless, the food insecure, etc) at any greater rate than the general population.
A Manifesto Against Ageism” by Ashton Applewhite, to discover the unconscious biases embedded in our culture that use age as a viable and acceptable measure of a person’s ability to participate and contribute in our society. I am so disappointed you are so unaware.
Far more important than the city shoveling the sidewalks is the city just enforcing the law for businesses to properly clear their sidewalks. Far too many gas stations plow their show & block the sidewalks, even worse than it was before they plowed. Far too many businesses don't do anything, you'd think they want the sidewalks to be cleared so the customers can get into the stores.
But what the city flat out must do, is get the plow drivers to go back over the corners, where they pile the snow up & you can't cross the streets & they also must clear the bus stops so you can get on & off the buses. If we get a big snow this winter, I will take my big snowblower, the one the NYT's Wirecutter has recommended for the last few years as the best one out there & go all the way to the corner & clear both bus stops I use all the time. Even the businesses there don't clear the bus stops.
A few years ago, I had to complain to the Wilmette Public Works Dept. head, because while Wilmette does plow their sidewalks after heavy snows, they piled it so high outside the Linden L station, there was a 3 foot tall ridge to cross to get on or off a bus there! A week after that complaint, I was there & they had removed the ridge.
As for Gail Arden's comment you highlighted, she reminds me of Mencken's belief that the rubes of his day, 100 years ago, went to evangelists because they were great entertainment, for people who had little to no entertainment, since they didn't have talking pictures, live stage shows or much music. In fact, watching the truly wacky evangelists maybe 20 years ago, I noticed that they always had a lot of music to start their TV shows & they were actually entertainers, that made the current day's rubes feel good, despite their spouting out all that biblical nonsense!
I like the snow comment. Shouldn't the CTA or RTA be responsible for keeping their stops clear? How are the different than the train platforms?
So what's the brand of snowblower? My sister favors the EGo https://egopowerplus.com/power-snow-blowers/ but I'm not sure which model.
Toro model 824 QXE. Make sure you get electric start, as small engines are hard to pull start in the cold weather.
Re: Government snow job.
Whether or not the city should take over responsibility for clearing snow on sidewalks depends on cost and reliability of the service. Plowing streets has not been without controversy. I think it would be good to do a pilot in some neighborhoods where property owners would pay an annual fee to cover the cost. Pooling resources to pay for a single contractor to shovel all snow in a neighborhood should cost less than each property owner doing it separately. I would like to see it tried in neighborhoods of varying density to see where it works and where it doesn't.
There is no reason to believe that the city can manage an effective and cost-effective sidewalk clearing service. I don't mind the idea of pilot projects, but I also want to know how they will be assessed and by whom. Simply running the pilots would tend to cement the concept that clearing sidewalks is a city responsibility vs an owner responsibility. Also, if the motivation is clearing snow for those with needs, then why wouldn't the service include the path to the front doors (including stairs and porch)?
We can also expect that the fees required for the service become political and obfuscated. Like garbage fees and water fees. The $9.50/mth/unit garbage fee only covers about a quarter of the city garbage collection costs. As with water, we can expect organizations and groups will claim the need for exemptions or subsidies. I think the service would become an enormous annual cost to avoid an infrequent inconvenience.
In Chicago there are an average of 28 days per year of measurable snow, 11 days a year when there is more than an inch of snow and less than 2 days with 5 inches or more. I always cleared my own sidewalk (all 35 feet of it, plus the 15 feet to the three flat). When the snow was light to moderate this took fifteen minutes. I think the rare heavy snow took less than an hour. Why would I want to pay for a service? Even if the fee was based on the width of the lot, I am guessing I would be paying a lot more for capacity, equipment, and labor that I didn't need. Owning property has responsibilities that fall on the owner.
The obfuscation is the worst part. Ideally, there would be a separate fee and reporting showing the cost of the program and the revenue from fees. But then the City of Chicago has, at times, been less than ideal in its execution of government duties. ;->
It may be a better idea for smaller organizations than the City government. For example, and organization representing employers in the loop.
Very well spoken! Let's remember this is Chicago. All services are politically motivated. Yes, there are costs involved. In some wards, it's hard enough to get city workers to do what they are paid to do, much less add a new duty. Drive around the city some time during summer. Ever wonder why some neighborhoods have beautifully paved streets while others have potholes that could swallow cars and have been there for years? I lived in a neighborhood in my youth on a street with ridges that could remind one of the Rocky Mountains. They were there for most of my youth. My alderman simply had no pull. If you add sidewalk snow removal to the tasks of chores already not being done, many will still be left "out in the cold-and snow".
As a member of a church similar to David Leitschuh's Willow Creek, I would like to call attention to the important difference between Criticism and Contempt. (If you have not had the opportunity, take a read in Chapter 5 of Dallas Willard's book, The Divine Conspiracy for why avoiding contempt should be the marker of the believer). Unlike Hillary Clinton's famous "Basket of Deplorables" quote, Eric's “an appalling reflection on these people who claim to follow the teachings of Christ.” is criticism, not contempt.
David is correct that "we are better than this", but it is only Jesus-followers who MUST avoid contempt and I am sorry to say that Contempt is what I see spoken by our Evangelical Trumpers on the national stage. (Disclaimer: I struggle to avoid falling into the Contempt trap when criticizing them myself!)
Personally, it is sad to see my "Christian siblings" who spent the 90s loudly claiming that personal immorality (i.e. Bill Clinton) disqualifies one from political service now reversing themselves for the sake of political victory for their favorite party (bald face hypocrisy).
Eric's criticism is legitimate, I am sorry to say, regardless of any good works done by our Christian institutions.
The city can't even clear side streets in a timely fashion nor do they even plow alleys, yet they want to tack on sidewalks? If our alderdopes want to make the streets and sidewalks safer, look to combat other safety issues, such as crime.
Will never vote for Trump and haven't watched Fox (or CNN) for a few years, but if you don't think Biden was complicit in his son's millions in Ukraine and China windfalls, you are naive at best.
1440 news is a good "just the facts ma'am" publication. PS is only publication I subscribe to with a definite lean.
I also have a long, drawn-out response to the shoveling proposal. "No".
If you really believe that Bidens’ son’s pathetic situation exposes a serious flaw within Biden himself, so be it. But, bringing this up in light of Trump and his family of influence-peddling millionaires? Why?
I'm sure that Hunter Biden got his "job" with Burisma and made his contacts with China because of his last name. As far as I know there is no evidence that Joe ever interceded in Hunter's efforts to get those jobs, payments, contacts; no evidence that he performed any official act or failed to perform an official act or benefitted financially from any of Hunter's dealings. I would like to see specifics rather than just dancing eyebrows.
Trump may well be more corrupt than Biden. Probably is. But to say that any accusation of Biden being corrupt is a "Fox News shrieking point unsupported by any evidence" is unfair and again naive at best.
"Have you ever spoken to your son about his overseas business dealings"? "No"
Your son makes $11mm dollars dealing with Ukraine and China over 5-year period. You play golf with him and his business partners. You attend lunches with him and his business associates. You are on conference calls with him and his business associates. What father has no idea when a troubled son is making $11 million dollars? Being VP and the head of US diplomatic efforts in Ukraine, he should have been made aware even if by some miracle he wasn't!
Never heard the "dancing eyebrows" before but assume it's not a compliment. :)
I realize this second link is far from neutral, but the quotes are accurate...
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/analysis-hunter-bidens-hard-drive-shows-firm-took-11-million-2013-2018-rcna29462
https://oversight.house.gov/blog/joe-biden-lied-at-least-15-times-about-his-familys-business-schemes/
"But individuals and business owners who now pay dearly for private snow removal services would make out well."
and this is why you won't have this as a city service. Remember how much the tax preparation industry balked (and prevented) free electronic tax filing? Same thing will happen here.
Not baked? The batter's not even thoroughly mixed. People gripe about taxes then want to do less as citizens! The government is us, people. Each person has an obligation to others as citizens and neighbors and it appears too many people have found it convenient to not do something that they should be doing, shoveling their sidewalks. Those aren't the "city's" sidewalks, they're our sidewalks. People should do their part as neighbors and members of the community and shovel their sections so that the entire sidewalk is cleared.
Can't do it? Then perhaps the neighbors help out those people who can't for whatever reason. The city can step up where necessary, such as stretches along parks, clearing roads, keeping walks clear at corners, etc.
Plow the sidewalks could go back to being shovel the sidewalks with a youth service program. They would get $credit that would be applied to tuition at any city public university. City would supply the shovels.
Ever since I got protested against back in my college days, I have developed this sense that not all protests were legit. A well aimed rotten tomato to the back of my head and a big cheer from my fellow students left a definite impression on me (pun intended). This isn’t right.
I also was taking a course on civil rights. When I watched little black kids walking through a gauntlet of screaming white adults…it hit me again, this isn’t right.
The gut feel came again watching women trying to go to clinics via a gauntlet of protesters with graphic pictures yelling at them.
And again when those wacko religious groups were celebrating the deaths of gay servicemen at their funerals.
I think there needs to be boundaries and my brain says you don’t decide those boundaries but my gut says otherwise.
I find the civil rights marches and gay rights protests easy to support. But what about January 6th, legit protest or not? My gut says no, but there are large groups of people say yes.
I’m sorry that happened to you. That sounds horrible.
“Splatatouille” is as cleverly perfect a name for the Rat Hole as "Chance the Snapper" was for Chicago's 2019 misplaced alligator. A salute to the unknown wits who proposed them!
And while I'm sorry to sound Creationist about this, I'm finding hard to believe that the Rat Hole was not created by human hands. Is there any evidence that it appeared spontaneously? Did someone follow its evolution from a little baby rat?
The expert at the zoo says it is the imprint of a squirrel that fell out of a tree.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/zoo-expert-reveals-3-reasons-why-chicagos-rat-hole-might-not-be-a-rat/3329043/?amp=1
The tail looks wrong for a squirrel, but I am not an expert.
From the article:
“You might be asking, however, if it was a squirrel, what about its tail?
‘I'm not totally sure whether the fur on a squirrel's tail would be heavy enough to imprint itself in concrete,’ Magle said. ‘It may have to do with how it landed. It may have to do with something else. But, you know, this is something we often see. Like, for example, it took them a long time to figure out that, like, certain animals in the fossil record had fur because fur doesn't really leave an impression necessarily the way a more dense part of a body, like a bone or muscles, would.’”
So, did the squirrel survive and scamper off? (No scamper tracks noted). Did it croak and then lie there for days slowly decaying? (Nobody noticed?) Did it croak (or get stuck) and then get quickly snagged by a hawk? Inquiring minds want to know! I'm glad to know that the experts don't believe this appeared through random pavement cracking or divine intervention.
From the article:
“But that still leaves the question of how did it get away with no other prints left in the concrete? Did the animal survive?
‘Squirrels are tough, but the reason that I think probably not is if it had, I would expect we would see other paw prints and stuff still in the concrete when it was sort of dragging itself off,’ Magle said.
There is one scenario, however, in which a happy ending could be conceivable.
‘At a minimum, it probably laid there long enough to leave that impression, the rest of [the concret] dried out,’ he said. ‘Sometimes animals, we see that sometimes with birds that hit windows, sometimes they seem like they're dead but they're stunned and they can lay there for hours before they get up and fly away. So sometimes that does happen.’
Whatever it is, residents are surprised at the sudden attention -- and just how big it's gotten, with tributes, a rush of visitors and more.”
Re UChicago/UIC and IIT/ITT confusion: As a DePaul alum, I'm always afraid the school will get confused with DeVry.
I thought it would get confused with DePauw.
Them too, yes
Our neighborhood has historically (the past 35 years we've lived here) had a fairly simple sidewalk clearing "plan": Those of us with snowblowers and/or able-bodied youths in the family get out and lay claim to which side of the street's sidewalk we'll be plowing or shoveling, most of us staying out an hour or so to get our blocks cleared and easily passable. Oftentimes (though less and less often in recent strange snowless winters) we even take care of entry walks and stairs of older neighbors.
I'm not sure if the city could do much to our routine but overcomplicate and screw it up, but it might be a relatively easy and somewhat helpful thing for an alder's office to make and keep a registry of "block club" efforts such as ours and possibly include some token reimbursement for gas and machine maintenance expenses.
Even without such an arrangement, I'm confident our local walks and drives and curbs will continue to be cleared of snow and icy crust a lot more quickly and thoroughly by our local crew of neighborly volunteers than we would ever be able to expect from the city and Streets & San. Just waiting in that expectation could actually be crippling to our current practice, and leave a lot of people stuck with uncleared and unsafe sidewalks.
Dave J.
There is definitely the germ of a good idea there.
(Germ? I am often fully masked or gaitered while out there blowing snow….)
Protests by their very nature are going to be controversial. And in order to get attention they will inconvenience you. I’ve been aggravated as I sat through my share of long traffic commutes trying to get home from work on a Friday while people slowed traffic by protesting on I-355 overpasses.
That being said, I’m okay with protests up until they turn violent with destruction of property and physical harm to law enforcement or others. At that point I say enough’s enough and steps should be taken to break it up.
The UIC story is what the University of Chicago powers that be are telling us now, but I believe the real problem was U of C wss not perceived as being as cool as one word Ivies, or Stanford hence the name switch.
Back when I went to church (Episcopalian) a guest priest said that the only story about Jesus that appears in all four gospels is cleansing the temple of moneylenders. I suppose supporting Trump is ok for evangelicals because he only borrows fraudulently, but doesn't lend. I feel I must point out once again, that churches and religious organizations do not support charities that provide human services (the homeless, the food insecure, etc) at any greater rate than the general population.
Willow Creek-and others like this 'church'-usually end badly with either money stolen or sexual harassment. In the case of Willow Creek, it was both.
Recommend you read “This Chair Rocks:
A Manifesto Against Ageism” by Ashton Applewhite, to discover the unconscious biases embedded in our culture that use age as a viable and acceptable measure of a person’s ability to participate and contribute in our society. I am so disappointed you are so unaware.