Sep 26, 2023·edited Sep 26, 2023Liked by Eric Zorn
Are you asking if something like the current selective enrollment process existed back in the day Eric’s kids went to school? My kids are a bit older the Eric’s younger kids. A bit younger than his oldest. The current type of system was definitely in place when my kids were in middle school and it made me grateful that we lived in the burbs and didn’t have to deal with that competitive nightmare. There have been tweaks along the way. One that I believe occurred at some point was that they stopped the horrifying practice of taking attendance in 7th grade into account in such a way that it encouraged student to step into the building when sick!
It’s ludicrous to think that these selective schools that lure away the brightest, most motivated, best behaved students, will improve the lot of the neighborhood students left behind.
help me understand - how was your kids' 'selective CPS high school' different from a Chicago charter school? other than the much lower per pupil level of funding at charter high schools? and if the only other difference is that your kids' selective CPS high school takes and educates kids with IEPs, then why not promote full funding of charter schools, so they could take more kids with IEPs? you imply that charter schools are in some way 'elitist" - and the selective government schools are not elitist? 'luring away' the same students of motivated parents that charter schools accept.
at least the charter schools admit by lottery - unlike the selective government school - albeit, as argued, not student with IEPs.
I have never said or implied that charter schools are "elitist." They simply dilute resources that could and should go to the existing network of public schools -- which would be fine if they were actually laboratories of education for the public schools, but they're not.
so, why are selective schools good and right - good enough and right enough for your children, who were selected - they were a school of choice for you and your children; but charter schools are not good and right for those those children whose low income parents want something other than their attendance area public school for their children? obviously you and your wife didn't prefer your attendance area public school for your children - you wanted something that you perceived as better for them - you had choice. and didn't your choice diminish your attendance area HS of higher achieving students and more motivated parents? why shd you and other middle/upper middle class parents in Chgo [incl'g the CPS Prez] have school choice - within or outside of CPS - but low income parents shd not have choice?
are Young, Payton, Lane and the other selective CPS HS's 'laboratories of education' for the other public schools?
disclosure - we raised our kids in Evanston, and they all attended and graduated from ETHS.
"I wish that the employers would set wages and prices so they can pay their employees fairly without expecting customers to make up the difference between a fair wage and the wage they’re paying."
This is a growing trend in the restaurant business. See Bayless, Rick for just one example. I applaud this approach.
"Ask yourself why Oak Park River Forest High School or Stevenson High School or New Trier or the Glenbards or any number of other stellar suburban public high schools outperform neighborhood high schools in Chicago?"
Okay, I will. I will go one up and ask myself what factors explain differences in performance between school districts. I am sure it is not a simple answer which fits into a sentence or two. Competition with other districts? I'd bet that is a small part of the answer for districts which are widely recognized as top notch. There are a number of different factors already cited in the PS discussion forum about environment and level of support at home. I would add a big factor is the priorities of the school board which is based on the political situation in each district. An extreme case is a district in Rockland County NY, which has been characterized as "gutting" the public school because a large portion of the public uses private school. Most of the debate in this forum has been on the general issue of public money for private schools. I suggest that it the answer should depend on the specific district. In the case of Rockland County, it may be unrealistic to ever expect the pubic schools to not be terrible. The debate in that case would be very different than having the debate regarding New Trier Township.
I’ll tell the story of a friend of mine that taught 1st grade , first in a CPS poor performing school, and then in a “leafy suburban paradise” with high performing schools. Over the 5 years she taught in the CPS schools, she had two children who came to school reading on the first day. The majority didn’t know their alphabet. At the suburban school typically half the class came in reading on the first day. All usually know their alphabet.
It seems like that speaks to the "support at home" factor. It is hard to believe that performance difference could be explained by differences in kindergarten. No doubt that is a big factor.
Eric, you mention that you would support the investments and rule changes that make public schools safe.
What are these magic rules and investments that will make the school first safe and then productive?
Chicago cannot control violence and crime in many areas. Exactly how are schools located in these areas suppose to both solve the violence problem and then actually educate students?
I agree with the folks that point to other factors like broken families, poverty, and parents that do not care as relevant problems.But the foundation is a safe environment, if you do not have that, teaching and learning do not take place.
When Covid first struck we did not have a solution. So we quarantined the sick away from the healthy until we found a solution. Well we do not know how to handle violent kids (especially gangs), so we need to isolate them - get them out of schools to allow the rest to have an education.
Kicking violent kids out the Catholic School was a solution for my son and his classmates.
I agree it was not a solution for the violent kids…but does anyone have a solution for them?
Eric, you chose the same solution as I did, you sent your kids to a safe school that would expel any violent kids.
If anyone has a solution for say a high school with a gang problem that does not involve eliminating the gang members, like to hear it.
Last note, this violence issue applies to the workplace. If there is violence in the workplace, the violent folks are fired. You cannot be productive in a dangerous work environment. What about the fired violent folks? Again, there seems to be no solution except jail - separating them from society.
One outcome of the increased wage for tipped workers is reduced staffing. With a lower minimum wage a place can pay to have more workers standing around during a lull. I would expect places to stretch workers a bit more going forward. We might see longer wait times.
I have another thought about tipping I hardly see anyone address. Some people comment as if they were required to eat out. On my senior citizen income I rarely eat out. Obviously there is no tip when I don't go to restaurants. And even when I have the opportunity to tip such as at the hot dog stand at a ballpark, I choose not to tip. My issue is the cost of the food. I often only get something to drink. Want to call me cheap? Fine, whatever. But some of us are concerned about the costs of eating away from home. A lack of tip is not a comment of me about the service given. It is about the prices of the food.
In the days when I used to go to the movies, I never bought anything from the concessions stand. If you eat before or after, why? However, when I saw a new print of Lawrence of Arabia at the Music Box, looking at all that Desert made me so thirsty I had to get a Coke at intermission.
You triggered a memory. In 1974 , I was in the Navy and drove in a caravan of trucks from Cairo to the Suez Canal. There were no roads and we drove two days with a compass when suddenly in the middle of the desert we saw a massive ship. Yep, it was the Suez Canal. A scene that was duplicated in Lawrence of Arabia. And yes, I would have given my eye teeth for an ice cold coke!
Agree completely about the change at 11-we contribute every year to public television and I did send them a complaint about the change. We always watched the daily show at 7-but do not watch 11 at 10 pm. Doubt that anything will change.
I wonder how much in-depth study there has been of why some children from bad homes and environments make it out successfully and some don’t. When we talk about lack of fathers and poverty, we are talking in global terms. Of course these are key factors, but I would assume not in every case. What affect do mothers have? What about grandparents and other relatives? To me, a key question is what are the specific differences in their daily lives. While there are always bad apples in every environment (for example our ex-president), I would guess a lot of these children who turn the wrong way have the potential to be productive citizens.
Re paywalls: I wish sites had an "à la carte" option, where I can pay a dollar (or whatever) to read an article. I'm happy to pay for content but I don't want a million trillion subscriptions.
Thanks for the reference. The article you referred me to (Achievement at school and socioeconomic background—an educational perspective) has this sentence, “What the continued gap between advantaged and disadvantaged students highlights is that despite all the research, it is still unclear how socioeconomic background influences student attainment.” For the most part, the article talks in global terms – large scale studies. I would like to see studies that conduct interviews with individual children. What is their perspective? How do they see things?
That paper I referenced is very high level but it makes references to other papers. I think there is a wide range of findings out there. Qualitative data such as interviews with individuals would tend to get interpreted with some bias. Papers with quantitative data are more objective at one level, but attaching a narrative to the findings is still subjective. But at least there is a set of facts that can be used as a starting point. Education research is not my field, but I know there is a lot of it out there. There is a lot of debate and strongly head opinions that lead to bias. For example, using literature based instructions vs phonics to teach reading.
Eric, the argument that allowing continuation of the Invest in Kids tax credit with the loss of about 900 students represents any threat whatsoever to CPS funding is a total red herring. Here's some facts on this.
In the past 5 years, CPS has experienced a loss of about 11% of their student population.
During the same 5-year period, funding for CPS increased 30%!!
In the past 5 years, the teacher- student ratio has improved.
CPS' failings are not in any way related to insufficient funding as they are funded better than most schools around the country and coincidentally, have some of the highest paid teachers in the country. The loss of 900 students through the Invest in Kids program makes no material difference in the very high funding received by CPS. The CTU does not want to be embarrassed by allowing children school choice in which the parents will virtually always opt for a better school, and that is the reason the CTU has mounted an aggressive campaign to eliminate this program and enslave these kids back into the failing CPS schools.
EZ - you state on the subject of school choice: "My children went to selective CPS high schools that did not have serious violence problems, and I certainly would support the investments and rule changes needed to make all public schools safe environments." and whose $$ would you spend to make these schools safe? oh, i know, you [& your spouse, i assume] would gladly pay more in taxes [up to some 'reasonable' limit] for these improvements. there is, of course, a problem with that - not enough $$ from the Zorns to fund all the necessary improvements. so, i assume, you're more than willing to spend OPM [other people's money] for the improvements. that's the 'progressive solution', right?
do you really believe there is some threshold of funding that will make all CPS schools safe? how much would it take, more or less - without turning them into mini police states? PS: i don't think it can or ever will happen; and i don't think it's worth testing your hypothesis by taxing and spending significantly more on government schools to try to find out where the 'sweet spot' is.
EZ, just curious. What does the "selective" in "My children went to selective CPS high schools..." mean? Was there a GoCPS type of program back then?
https://chicago.chalkbeat.org/2019/10/1/21121020/seven-things-families-should-know-about-high-school-admissions-in-chicago#:~:text=3.,required%20to%20participate%20in%20GoCPS.
Are you asking if something like the current selective enrollment process existed back in the day Eric’s kids went to school? My kids are a bit older the Eric’s younger kids. A bit younger than his oldest. The current type of system was definitely in place when my kids were in middle school and it made me grateful that we lived in the burbs and didn’t have to deal with that competitive nightmare. There have been tweaks along the way. One that I believe occurred at some point was that they stopped the horrifying practice of taking attendance in 7th grade into account in such a way that it encouraged student to step into the building when sick!
Selective means they're not your public neighborhood school --in some cases-- but public schools that you have to test into
Thanks EZ.
It’s ludicrous to think that these selective schools that lure away the brightest, most motivated, best behaved students, will improve the lot of the neighborhood students left behind.
help me understand - how was your kids' 'selective CPS high school' different from a Chicago charter school? other than the much lower per pupil level of funding at charter high schools? and if the only other difference is that your kids' selective CPS high school takes and educates kids with IEPs, then why not promote full funding of charter schools, so they could take more kids with IEPs? you imply that charter schools are in some way 'elitist" - and the selective government schools are not elitist? 'luring away' the same students of motivated parents that charter schools accept.
at least the charter schools admit by lottery - unlike the selective government school - albeit, as argued, not student with IEPs.
I have never said or implied that charter schools are "elitist." They simply dilute resources that could and should go to the existing network of public schools -- which would be fine if they were actually laboratories of education for the public schools, but they're not.
so, why are selective schools good and right - good enough and right enough for your children, who were selected - they were a school of choice for you and your children; but charter schools are not good and right for those those children whose low income parents want something other than their attendance area public school for their children? obviously you and your wife didn't prefer your attendance area public school for your children - you wanted something that you perceived as better for them - you had choice. and didn't your choice diminish your attendance area HS of higher achieving students and more motivated parents? why shd you and other middle/upper middle class parents in Chgo [incl'g the CPS Prez] have school choice - within or outside of CPS - but low income parents shd not have choice?
are Young, Payton, Lane and the other selective CPS HS's 'laboratories of education' for the other public schools?
disclosure - we raised our kids in Evanston, and they all attended and graduated from ETHS.
"I wish that the employers would set wages and prices so they can pay their employees fairly without expecting customers to make up the difference between a fair wage and the wage they’re paying."
This is a growing trend in the restaurant business. See Bayless, Rick for just one example. I applaud this approach.
"Ask yourself why Oak Park River Forest High School or Stevenson High School or New Trier or the Glenbards or any number of other stellar suburban public high schools outperform neighborhood high schools in Chicago?"
Okay, I will. I will go one up and ask myself what factors explain differences in performance between school districts. I am sure it is not a simple answer which fits into a sentence or two. Competition with other districts? I'd bet that is a small part of the answer for districts which are widely recognized as top notch. There are a number of different factors already cited in the PS discussion forum about environment and level of support at home. I would add a big factor is the priorities of the school board which is based on the political situation in each district. An extreme case is a district in Rockland County NY, which has been characterized as "gutting" the public school because a large portion of the public uses private school. Most of the debate in this forum has been on the general issue of public money for private schools. I suggest that it the answer should depend on the specific district. In the case of Rockland County, it may be unrealistic to ever expect the pubic schools to not be terrible. The debate in that case would be very different than having the debate regarding New Trier Township.
I’ll tell the story of a friend of mine that taught 1st grade , first in a CPS poor performing school, and then in a “leafy suburban paradise” with high performing schools. Over the 5 years she taught in the CPS schools, she had two children who came to school reading on the first day. The majority didn’t know their alphabet. At the suburban school typically half the class came in reading on the first day. All usually know their alphabet.
It seems like that speaks to the "support at home" factor. It is hard to believe that performance difference could be explained by differences in kindergarten. No doubt that is a big factor.
Eric, you mention that you would support the investments and rule changes that make public schools safe.
What are these magic rules and investments that will make the school first safe and then productive?
Chicago cannot control violence and crime in many areas. Exactly how are schools located in these areas suppose to both solve the violence problem and then actually educate students?
I agree with the folks that point to other factors like broken families, poverty, and parents that do not care as relevant problems.But the foundation is a safe environment, if you do not have that, teaching and learning do not take place.
When Covid first struck we did not have a solution. So we quarantined the sick away from the healthy until we found a solution. Well we do not know how to handle violent kids (especially gangs), so we need to isolate them - get them out of schools to allow the rest to have an education.
Kicking violent kids out the Catholic School was a solution for my son and his classmates.
I agree it was not a solution for the violent kids…but does anyone have a solution for them?
Eric, you chose the same solution as I did, you sent your kids to a safe school that would expel any violent kids.
If anyone has a solution for say a high school with a gang problem that does not involve eliminating the gang members, like to hear it.
Last note, this violence issue applies to the workplace. If there is violence in the workplace, the violent folks are fired. You cannot be productive in a dangerous work environment. What about the fired violent folks? Again, there seems to be no solution except jail - separating them from society.
Interesting comparison of quarantining Covid kids and isolating violent kids...I'll have to noodle on that.
This week might be the first where I wanted to vote for two visual tweets. But no worries, because my second choice (Swearhouse) is leading.
One outcome of the increased wage for tipped workers is reduced staffing. With a lower minimum wage a place can pay to have more workers standing around during a lull. I would expect places to stretch workers a bit more going forward. We might see longer wait times.
I have another thought about tipping I hardly see anyone address. Some people comment as if they were required to eat out. On my senior citizen income I rarely eat out. Obviously there is no tip when I don't go to restaurants. And even when I have the opportunity to tip such as at the hot dog stand at a ballpark, I choose not to tip. My issue is the cost of the food. I often only get something to drink. Want to call me cheap? Fine, whatever. But some of us are concerned about the costs of eating away from home. A lack of tip is not a comment of me about the service given. It is about the prices of the food.
In the days when I used to go to the movies, I never bought anything from the concessions stand. If you eat before or after, why? However, when I saw a new print of Lawrence of Arabia at the Music Box, looking at all that Desert made me so thirsty I had to get a Coke at intermission.
You triggered a memory. In 1974 , I was in the Navy and drove in a caravan of trucks from Cairo to the Suez Canal. There were no roads and we drove two days with a compass when suddenly in the middle of the desert we saw a massive ship. Yep, it was the Suez Canal. A scene that was duplicated in Lawrence of Arabia. And yes, I would have given my eye teeth for an ice cold coke!
We were there to take the mines out of the canal.
Agree completely about the change at 11-we contribute every year to public television and I did send them a complaint about the change. We always watched the daily show at 7-but do not watch 11 at 10 pm. Doubt that anything will change.
I wonder how much in-depth study there has been of why some children from bad homes and environments make it out successfully and some don’t. When we talk about lack of fathers and poverty, we are talking in global terms. Of course these are key factors, but I would assume not in every case. What affect do mothers have? What about grandparents and other relatives? To me, a key question is what are the specific differences in their daily lives. While there are always bad apples in every environment (for example our ex-president), I would guess a lot of these children who turn the wrong way have the potential to be productive citizens.
I am sure there has been quite a lot of study on this topic. Here is one link to get started.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41539-018-0022-0
Re paywalls: I wish sites had an "à la carte" option, where I can pay a dollar (or whatever) to read an article. I'm happy to pay for content but I don't want a million trillion subscriptions.
Thanks for the reference. The article you referred me to (Achievement at school and socioeconomic background—an educational perspective) has this sentence, “What the continued gap between advantaged and disadvantaged students highlights is that despite all the research, it is still unclear how socioeconomic background influences student attainment.” For the most part, the article talks in global terms – large scale studies. I would like to see studies that conduct interviews with individual children. What is their perspective? How do they see things?
That paper I referenced is very high level but it makes references to other papers. I think there is a wide range of findings out there. Qualitative data such as interviews with individuals would tend to get interpreted with some bias. Papers with quantitative data are more objective at one level, but attaching a narrative to the findings is still subjective. But at least there is a set of facts that can be used as a starting point. Education research is not my field, but I know there is a lot of it out there. There is a lot of debate and strongly head opinions that lead to bias. For example, using literature based instructions vs phonics to teach reading.
Eric, the argument that allowing continuation of the Invest in Kids tax credit with the loss of about 900 students represents any threat whatsoever to CPS funding is a total red herring. Here's some facts on this.
In the past 5 years, CPS has experienced a loss of about 11% of their student population.
During the same 5-year period, funding for CPS increased 30%!!
In the past 5 years, the teacher- student ratio has improved.
CPS' failings are not in any way related to insufficient funding as they are funded better than most schools around the country and coincidentally, have some of the highest paid teachers in the country. The loss of 900 students through the Invest in Kids program makes no material difference in the very high funding received by CPS. The CTU does not want to be embarrassed by allowing children school choice in which the parents will virtually always opt for a better school, and that is the reason the CTU has mounted an aggressive campaign to eliminate this program and enslave these kids back into the failing CPS schools.
Re: Tipping. When I've left a tip on my credit card, I've wondered if the tip actually goes to.
Nice Tweets Z. Didn't get the poetic one but, that's me doing me..
This is a fairly well-known poem:
This Is Just To Say
By William Carlos Williams
I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox
and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast
Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold
I understand your point. However, I'm also interested in what the children are thinking that leads them to the decisions they make.
EZ - you state on the subject of school choice: "My children went to selective CPS high schools that did not have serious violence problems, and I certainly would support the investments and rule changes needed to make all public schools safe environments." and whose $$ would you spend to make these schools safe? oh, i know, you [& your spouse, i assume] would gladly pay more in taxes [up to some 'reasonable' limit] for these improvements. there is, of course, a problem with that - not enough $$ from the Zorns to fund all the necessary improvements. so, i assume, you're more than willing to spend OPM [other people's money] for the improvements. that's the 'progressive solution', right?
do you really believe there is some threshold of funding that will make all CPS schools safe? how much would it take, more or less - without turning them into mini police states? PS: i don't think it can or ever will happen; and i don't think it's worth testing your hypothesis by taxing and spending significantly more on government schools to try to find out where the 'sweet spot' is.